Gun FX

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Permalink Reply by Visogoth on July 27, 2008 at 1:11am

What about after effects? Or pyro?

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Permalink Reply by J,M. on July 28, 2008 at 7:53pm

for added realism, it is not difficult to buy real firearms with the firing mechanistic either removed or predominantly disabled (you can order em off the internet or a magazine) , alot of times for like recreationist groups (there are groups out there that do WW1, WW2, Korean war and Vietnam war stuff) these groups often participate in documentries themselves and may provide technical assistance...


as for Blank rounds, yeah it's dangerous... but, it can still be done safely, double checking, or triple checkign equipment, keeping a minimum range at a safe distance, or doing 'firearms' scenes in multiple shots... shot one guy shooting, shot two guy getting shot...

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Permalink Reply by ClericRuss on August 1, 2008 at 9:44pm

Oddly enough, there's a lot of motion picture & television producers that ask this question every day...

Truth be told- take a look at these photos and you tell me which of the rifles in these pix are real or fake...

My "Rambolina" in the middle is the only one packing real "heat" in her photo.

The other shots involved physicality or stunt work in their scenes & live weapons is tantamount to suicide on the entire film crew...

Here's what I suggest for your budget, for realism and then for safety.

1- For budget, by "Air Soft"- spend the money and get AEG model machine guns or "green gas" pistols- they have machine actions identical to "real steel" equipment and often have the weight very close to the real thing. "No"- AEGs and the "nicer" models aren't "cheap" in that you could buy $5 eBay versions of the same thing, but I'll explain a little trick to you in a second that'll help you along...

2- Realism. Buy Resin cast or pig-iron metal models. If they're only going to sit in a holster or you're going to have your hero fight the villain for his "shootin' iron" Resin has nearly identical weight and feel to Real. If you're good at paint/weathering- the camera will never know the difference- and done correctly I've had weapons experts tell me their surprise at a particular scene sporting a "plastic" gun in the shot [most often, resin copies are actually made from the real weapon- so in a way, it "is" the real weapon- at least to teh camera- hence the viewer.]

3- Budget. Some of what I've mentioned above would apply in this catagory- "AirSofts" that are from the $6 eBay bins- resin casts that need a chainsaw and a block of granite to sand them down- in a pinch, hell, I've even had a carpenter cut me some crap out of wood & pvc pipe and I STILL fooled the camera.

inevitably though, "cheap" is gonna get caught looking "cheap"- unless you have friends, or you yourself are crafty with metalic detailing, weathering & such to spruce up what you buy in the discount bins or on-line stores.

Couple a things about REAL STEEL:

1] I don't care if you're in your back yard or you just paid Scorcesse to direct, if you are not licensed with carry/concealed You. Can. Be. Put. In. Jail.

Period.

Trust me- I've been on set & had some Jack-off [yeah, I said that] that convinced me he had his own permits for armoury handling get hauled off to "The Pokey" & almost had my arsenal impounded during one shoot- thankfully I knew the sheriff & I got my stuff back in time for the next day's shoot!

Blanks are as deadly as the real thing.

Note the period at the end of that sentence.

You have to have special "siphons" or barrel plugs for the barrel of your live weapon in order for magazine fed weapons to work properly- which, if you're using pistols [like a Colt 1911 .45 caliber] that means the entire barrel has to be removed and a special one put in.

Also- last time I purchased ammo for a film I worked on, I spent roughly $800 for .223 and .308 crimped loads- that was basically for 500 rounds of ammunition.

Unless you make your own crimped loads- and pay a pack of college kids $40 a day to pick up brass, it gets expensive real quick.

I had a director ask once "Can we get full auto on everybody's 'guns'?"

"Sure can", I said. He got a little "too smart" on me though...

"Oh, wait a minute- how much ammo could we go through for this sequence..?"

"Uh- for today- it'll take about 1600 rounds- especially for tight shots, pick-ups and then we have the squibs and body hits tomorrow that'll have to be timed..."

"Too much-" He said [meaning "too much money"] "leave 'em on semi-auto."

Plus- blanks can kill just as easily as 'live' loads- all you need is closer ranges.

If you are not:
A] licensed,
B] if you can not afford beer & hot-dogs/hamburgers for some friends off the sheriff's department to either help or stand and watch
C] if your actors have not served time in Delta Force or The US Navy SEALs-

Stay off the blanks until you can at least make friends with your local police force or swat team [I am, I have with both & trust me, it opens doors].

The reason I bring up actors in point c is this...

They don't call actors "meat puppets" for nothing in Hollyweird. If it's stupid and it can be done- they'll do it and it'll still be stupid- only "The Meat Puppet" will either be missing its eyebrows at the very least- or be carried out in a body-bag at the worst.

Google Brandon Lee. He did nothing wrong- but the armorer on the set got sick & had to leave & the thumbs-up-the-ass guy that stayed "to help out" was a dreadfully shit-fired ignorant SOB. Thanks to him a promising actor faded from his fans.

If you ever want help finding good deals on "fake guns", certainly drop me a note- I don't mind helping out th budding afficianato!

Oh- by the way... The reason I say "Spend the money and get AEG or Green Gas blowback guns"? There's this neat little program from England called FXLab...

FX Home Software

You can purchase it on-line & it has all sorts of presets for gunfire effects- even explosions and lightsabers [only, by copywrite- they can't call it "light saber" they call it "Neon Light FX"]

Compared to LucasArts with software packages ranging in the millions of dollars, this stuff sells for $500 [okay- not "cheap" in the short term- but not blowing holes in gran-ma's kitchen wall saves money too!] Get this- you can download a trial version for free!

Hope this helps- just want everyone to be safe & still have rowdy fun..!

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Permalink Reply by Visogoth on August 2, 2008 at 4:50pm

Thanks. Do you have to have some kind of pyro license to use squibs?

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Permalink Reply by ClericRuss on August 5, 2008 at 1:25pm

Personally- if you're going to work for me, you don't have to have it when I hire you but you'd either better get it or come around when I'm offering a chance to get paid to attend BATF classes. So, to hang with me, the answer's yes; I and my crew are all Class 3 Federally licensed pyrotechnicians.

Now- given that the usual question after that becomes- "do you need a license to use squibs?" Well... Honest to God's truth..?

The short answer is "no"- but like all short answers I; make it with this caveat-

"No, but..."

Anything over 1700 grains [roughly what, a teaspoon, plus a little?] compacted and placed with a detonator for the sole purpose of combustion/explosion is by definition a "destructive device- not considered fireworks/pyrotechnical/theatrical" and subject to FEDERAL BATF guidelines for all "Destructive Devices".

The BODY squibs that I manufacture & use myself are as big as what I've outlined above- no bigger. Anything larger than that & it's got enough kinetic energy to put a hole through a car door and compacted properly will make a cinder block wall blow like a mortar round has nicked it.

I pay around $4000 a year in licensing just to be sure I'm compliant.

I have had some years where I've spent 4x that in education to learn the latest in manufactured technology and ignition systems [it's much easier & cheaper to purchase quality controlled, mass produced items- which can only be done by licensed professionals].

Honestly, if your state allows for the distribution and/or sale for black powder [usually in 1 pound blocks or tins], a firecracker sized load may not warrant much attention from your local gendarmes- unless of course they're interested in what you're up to with a few ghouls hanging around and a guy with a smokin' hole in his chest drinking a diet Coke...

When they come up asking if you "know what you're doing" you'd best be able to prove it.

Nothing says "Yes sir, here's proof" like having that BATF destructive devices license- and, if you want to make some real buddies, point towards the bar-b-que grill and mention "while I've got your attention, would you like a burger or hot-dog from our Kraft Services- I'd like to learn a thing or two from you guys?"

They'll definitely want to know all about make-up and Hollyweird- you in turn can gain some powerful allies for your 'war against the undead"! [*wink*]

Hope that helps!

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Permalink Reply by Nef Rodriguez on August 2, 2008 at 11:33pm

you are my new hero!! thank you sooooo much for this advice. this'll be very helpful for me and my friends' projects. thank you.

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Permalink Reply by Mark on August 19, 2008 at 7:38pm

Adobe After Effects Has all the tools you need to do a full fledged Zombie movie.
Couple After Effects with Photoshop and you have yourself a dynamic digital display of gore and firearms... everything from bloodspatter to muzzle flashes, and from decapitations to heads exploding.

I can give you pointers or at least point you in the right direction of how to learn everything I've learned.

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Permalink Reply by Wolfe4086 on August 19, 2008 at 8:08pm

+1 on what ClericRuss said

Your best bet is to go with AEG Airsoft weapons(I picked up a few myself). They look fairly real and you will have to sand the tips and repaint them black. Also remember kids if you are filming in public to get permits or contact your local film office in regards to alerting the police to what is going on. It may be fun to shoot in your neighborhood but if your neighbors see you brandishing what looks to be a M4 or pistol rest assured SWAT might be coming to see you. Better to go through the proper procedures and spare yourself a headache.

One of the things I am working on for a Feature Film project is getting permission from the owner of a location to use it. This is for the safety of the actors and everyone else. Even with Airsoft it only takes one person not part of the film crew to cause a bad thing to happen. Also no matter what you use remember [b]SAFETY[/b] is paramount. When not in use keep your replicas, airsofts or whatever stored in a container. Also with Airsoft weapons keep the magazines out and the battery for the weapon should not even be on site. Either way have fun and if you need any ideas for Airsoft weapons and things to make them look more interesting drop me a line.

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Permalink Reply by Mark on August 19, 2008 at 8:18pm

I agree, however, without having to go through all the red tape of asking the city's permission to weild even fake firearms, digital is quite possibly the easiest and most inexpensive way to go... and if you lived in my area, there are plenty of places to shoot without permission... (
Yes, I know. Not all of us are privvy to that kind of location.)
I hate the whole location permission thing.. some people/companies need to see proof of insurance and bonding from a reputable company that specializes in the entertainment industry

HOWEVER, on the flip side, agreeing with you 100% if that's the route you're gonna go. The more realistic the better. You'd just better hope that the permits and/or insurance isn't murder on your budget.

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Permalink Reply by Wolfe4086 on August 19, 2008 at 8:43pm

Well thankfully where I want to shoot and base most of the Shadow Wars Series (The Feature length is part of the series but not filmed there) will be Philadelphia, PA. They are actually quite helpful and most on street shooting is permit free. I would let them know of the Airsoft weapons as a courtesy as well as the local PD in the area. Being a Microbudget production (Looking at doing a similar method that Kevin Smith used for Clerks for budgeting.) I am worried about the insurance and bonding issues. :(

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Permalink Reply by Mark on August 19, 2008 at 8:58pm

Just a quick googling came up with this:
http://www.filmins.com/

Though they are in CA, it doesn't mean you can't give it a shot. Though you might need a head company to get rolling, unless you are going through an independent company...

In most cases they can insure you without a Federal Tax ID, if you are doing it alone... by alone, I mean... just you and a few friends....

However, if you need a parent company... (though I can't back you finacially, I can help with the Federal Tax ID number... you'd just have to add my production company to the credits...)You can use my company as a reference point.

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Permalink Reply by Wolfe4086 on August 20, 2008 at 11:40am

Thanks for the support. Actually I have the LLC set up for the production company and next time I go stateside I will be applying for my Federal Employer ID number. :) The film insurance site was a big help and I see that they cover microbudget films. I emailed them asking them what they consider a fight scene being I don't want them dropping me for scenes in which a zombie or two is gnawing on a victim. :)

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